Stud Life (Queer British Cinema)

This episode we talk about Stud Life, the story of butch lesbian's somewhat confused journey to find love on the streets of London. This podcast needs your help to keep going - you can support us on Patreon. Go to patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast and join for as little as $5 per month and we will provide you with personalised movie recommendations, along side all the other perks that come with membership. Thank you! This is a queer movie watch party for your ears, hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we take a look at the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to comedy classics - Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things queer on the silver screen! New episodes every other Thursday. Find Us on the Internet Super Highway - Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod  - Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast - Website: http://www.queermoviepodcast.co.uk/  - Multitude: @MultitudeShows Production - Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John - Editor: Julia Schifini - Executive Producer: Multitude - Artwork: Jessica E. Boyd Transcript:   JAZZA:  Hello, friends Jazza here will dive into the episode soon but first, Rowan and I need to ask for your help. As you know, we were able to start making episodes again because the wonderful people at Multitude believed in what we were making and the community that we have built here. We're really grateful to them and to you because we've had so much fun diving back into making these episodes. However, since we started making episodes again in November 2021, we still haven't broken even with the ad reads and the couple of dozen people who support us on Patreon, we are still losing money. Our last resort is to turn to you guys. Please, if you can support us on Patreon for as little as $5 per month. As usual, if you join us at this tier, you'll be able to join our Discord server for our Queer Movie Watch Along on the last Saturday of every month. They really are an absolute ball and the community there is really wonderful and really worth joining. But also because of this Patreon drive, Rowan and I will give everyone who is supporting us at the $5 tier and above by the 28th of August 2022 personalized movie recommendations based on your prompts. It'll be a lot of work for us, hopefully, but we want it to be something special for those of you who chose to help the podcast in a financial way. Please go to patreon.com/theQueerMoviePodcast and help keep this podcast going. We really do need your help to do so. Thank you very much. And now on with the show.  [theme] JAZZA:  Welcome to the Queer Movie Podcast celebrating the best and worst in LGBTQ+. Cinema one glorious genre at a time.  ROWAN:  I'm Rowan Ellis. JAZZA:  And I am Jazza John ROWAN:  Each episode, we discuss a movie from a different genre of cinema.  JAZZA:  This episode's genre is JAZZA AND ROWAN:  Queer Britain. JAZZA:  Oh yeah, Governor! ROWAN:  This is absolutely a genre. Don't question it. Don't think about it. Just the whole of British cinema as a genre. We host the podcast we make the rules. So this week, we are going to be discussing the like celebratory butch lesbian film set in London from 2012 Stud life. JAZZA:  I am very excited to discuss how hot the main character is mainly but first row and as always, what is the gayest thing that you've done since the last episode?  ROWAN:  Um, so I went to New York and I met my literary agent at a lesbian bar in New York because it turns out that there are still some around. JAZZA:  They exist. ROWAN:  I think we got like one in London right now. Like that. JAZZA:  Oh, that's sad. I remember they closed the last one in Manchester when I lived there and it was. a eulogy was held. ROWAN:  So yeah, that's essentially what I did. And then also went to like Bluestockings, which is like a very queer bookstore and, and all of that jazz. Yeah, it was very gay time. What about you, Jazza? What was the gayest thing you've done since we last spoke? JAZZA:  So we are recording this at the end of May. ROWAN:  We are.  JAZZA:  Two thousand and twenty-two, and May obviously is the most important month in my calendar. Not only is it my birthday. ROWAN:  Oh, I know where this is going. Yes, of course. JAZZA:  Thank you. Thank you. Not only is it my birthday, but always around my birthday, the Eurovision Song Contest, the greatest event ever created by man happens around that time. ROWAN:  Yeah.  JAZZA:  This year, I was going to turn up to a Eurovision party in drag, dragged up as a previous contestant of the Eurovision. ROWAN:  Dragged up as Europe. JAZZA:  As Europe, as Europe as a whole. Unfortunately, Verka Serduchka was already taken, and also Poli is kind of retired, Poli, my drag persona. She's retired right now, she's sleeping. ROWAN:  Alright.  JAZZA:  So instead I spent six hours gluing sequins to a mechanic's boiler.  ROWAN:  It looked incredible. JAZZA:  Thank you so much. It is a little worse for wear now because everything has fallen off because it was glue. But I went as the UK entry Sam Ryder this year because he also had a beautiful spangly all-in-one and we came second. The UK- ROWAN:  Truly JAZZA:  -for the first time in like 20 years came second in the table winning the jury vote. I am ecstatic and this is gay because Eurovision is queer culture. I've now accidentally started a tradition where I now have to dress up as the UK entry every year so that we do well because that was obviously the thing that tipped it- ROWAN:  Yeah.  JAZZA:  -into what into our favor, you know? ROWAN:  Yeah, I will be, this time next year. I'll check in with you on how that went.  JAZZA:  Act dependent.  ROWAN:  Does this mean that we have to host it next year? JAZZA:  We don't know. So Ukraine won.  ROWAN:  Yeah, so which, you know, feels like a little bit much to put that on them right now.  JAZZA:  Right, exactly.  ROWAN:  Like, by the way, can you just host Eurovision next year? Can you just get the plans going?  JAZZA:  So basically, I don't want to turn this into a Eurovision podcast because I've already done that my other podcast. But basically, Ukraine get first refusal. ROWAN:  Okay.  JAZZA:  And then they get to choose who the next person is who gets the next refusal. ROWAN:  Okay, so we don't necessarily, it doesn't necessarily matter- JAZZA:  No.  ROWAN:  -that we were second?  JAZZA:  Not necessarily. ROWAN:  Okay.  JAZZA:  So it could be us. It could be Poland, it could be Germany, or it could be in Ukraine depending on how things go. Because there was conflict the last time that they hosted in 20, 16/17, something like that. But we will see. ROWAN:  We'll see.  JAZZA:  Americans if you haven't watched the Eurovision Song Contest, it's on YouTube. It's kind of like the American Song contest, but with history and better. ROWAN:  Excellent. Well, now that you've called out the Americans, shall we move on to the bit where we talk about the British film?  JAZZA:  Let's do it. [theme] JAZZA:  For the uninitiated, here's how we do things. We will be giving you some background on the portrayal of butch lesbians in media and where this film sits in the wider history of Queer British Cinema. ROWAN:  After that, as always, we'll be splitting the film into three acts crowbarring the Party and its Aftermath into one of them, which for listeners of the show, understand, somehow is in every single queer film that we end up reviewing, and ending as always, with our very special gay ratings. JAZZA:  We are going to be spoiling all of this movie. So this is for people who have seen the film or do not care about it being spoiled. You've been warned. ROWAN:  So without further ado, let's go cottaging in search of our own Manchester, Jeff, not from Manchester, and talk about Stud Life. JAZZA:  I write the script and I love making you say these bits every time. ROWAN:  Yeah, Jazza does write these scripts and I am too lazy to approve them before we go live. So– JAZZA:  You idiot.  ROWAN:  – that's on me. [theme] JAZZA:  British Queer Cinema has a long history though. Of course, the older films that have a lot of queer subtexts, the vampire lovers, which we have viewed on the podcast before is a clear standout of that. But also of explicitly queer movies that do tend to have kind of like the sad bent to them, but not all of them. Some of the most celebrated ones are things like My Beautiful Laundrette, which came out in the 1980s, in 1985, and told the story of a budding romance between a punk and a guy with Pakistani heritage and how they ended up running a glorious business together. It's a laundrette and maybe not that glorious.  ROWAN:  It's a beautiful laundrette, Jazza.  JAZZA:  It's very pretty laundrette with great decor. That's what the gays has been known for. Again, there's stuff like Orlando in the early 90s, that kind of, again, plays with LGBT themes in terms of kind of like gender identity and expression, famously with Tilda Swinton that kind of like cemented Tilda's kind of like role as the androgynous go to actor across many roles. And then we have kind of like a bit of a dearth for about a decade across the 90s, a couple of pieces from the early 2000s The Hours is kind of like a standout there that has lesbian themes. And then just before this movie Stud Life came out in 2012, one of my favorite movies, the Weekend came out in 2011, which is celebrated as a nice, cute, simple, kind of like romance story. ROWAN:  I will say in the 90s. Interestingly, mid-90s is when Beautiful Thing came out. But Beautiful Thing was originally a Channel 4 movie that they didn't necessarily think would do well enough, and only when he got a kind of a wider release, because of how popular it was, which I guess is kind of interesting. Like it wasn't necessarily like this was a British film that got made for like, to be taken into cinemas and like had an international release or something like that. So maybe there was just something about the 90s it was just in the water. I mean, like I've in terms of I feel like research about British films is kind of okay, because like we have the BFI and I feel like they keep a lot of data in a lot of records. I don't really know about the numbers for queer British films, but the British film, in general, is quite renowned for having low budgets. I think that's probably the main-  JAZZA:  Scrapy-ness  ROWAN:  Scrappy little British movies. And I think that like, there was some info, I don't know whether you came across this Jazza that the BFI kind of put together and kind of put together in the last kind of few decades, which basically was looking at the fact that like British movies just don't really make money for the most part, and a lot of them have budgets of like under half a million, which in Hollywood is like unthinkable. But consistently, they do better in terms of both critic and audience scores. And so it's kind of a really interesting dynamic where British cinema It's one of those things that a lot of people are very like proud of in the UK. And we have like a very strong kind of indie scene a lot of ways a lot of film festivals for how small our little island is. But notoriously, they have very little money. And I actually think that that makes a lot of our cinema, more interesting and a lot of ways because we are not able to follow the Hollywood trends because a lot of them rely on big budgets on like, superhero movies and stuff like that. So when we do superhero stuff, we have to do things like Misfits. JAZZA:  Yeah. ROWAN:  Because we don't have the ability to have the big thing be the powers, the big thing has to be the comedy or the drama or the characters. One of the movies, I would say comes across as more of like a British-style movie that's actually American. That goes into sci-fi, for example, the Chronicle, which is much more kind of down to earth. And so you have like Alien movies, you have Attack The Block rather than a big, huge disaster movie. And so I think that some really exciting things come from it. JAZZA:  It's like that, that restriction of the medium. And what you have to do makes you have to come up with new and interesting ways of being able to tell the story that you want to tell, because maybe you want to do like Captain America, but you have to maybe do something a little bit more interesting that relies on the writing on the performances and more creative ways of being able to get your movie across. ROWAN:  Yeah, having said that, this movie is essentially a contemporary, like drama-romance. So it doesn't necessarily have anywhere to hide in terms of like, hey, we're actually doing something really interesting or weird with genre or things like that. I think the interesting and weird thing they're doing with the genre is the fact it's queer, and specifically, the fact that it's centered around a butch character, which is, it turns out, not very common. JAZZA:  Can you tell us a little bit about that? What's butch representation been like? Because the only thing that I really can think of in my ignorance is the character in Orange is the New Black.  ROWAN:  Yep, Boo, that is a character a lot of people talk about. So here is one of my absolute like pet peeves when people talk about queer representation. Because it's very much my job to think about it and to talk about it and to know about it. And I get a lot of people who find that out, talking to me about butch, lesbian characters or effeminate, gay men characters in a way that they think they assume I'll agree when they're like, oh, like, isn't it good that we've moved beyond those stereotypes? And I hate that, because I genuinely like challenge anyone who thinks that to actually count how many effeminate gay characters they have seen in a lead role with character development with like, depth, that wasn't just the butt of a joke, that wasn't just a side character to be like the gay best friend to the lead, like actually think about how many times you've seen queer men who are not, like masculine, straight passing, be able to tell their story, as opposed to prop up someone else's. And I guarantee you, it will not be a lot. And exactly the same with butch women. So having something like this, which casts this character, like as a as a lead as a romantic lead as a desirable lead is so so important. Because it is so separate from what straight society, mainstream society understands like butch women to be. And I think as well, like, there's a lot of exploration within this movie of the dynamic between butch and femme of the kind of current use of it at the time, and this film was made, which is very interesting, like the history of Butch femme as like a relationship dynamic as an identity is like extremely interesting. And, you know, unfortunately, like a lot of queer history is not necessarily known for sure. So for example, like, there is a debate in terms of the origin of the word butch, and also the word femme. So like, for butch, some people are like, it's based on existing slang at the time, some people were like, it was a slur that came from somewhere else and was reclaimed basically, immediately, in the 1940s. And other one was like it was based on the name for a style of men's haircut at the time like there's lots of theories. And there's also obviously within this more kind of disparate, and because of their very nature, secretive small communities, butch, and femme grew up within the lesbian bar scene of the 1940s and 50s, specifically, the working class lesbian bar scene. But that is, you can say that, but like if it's the 1940s It's not like everyone was in a Facebook group together discussing this stuff. And so and everyone already is very individual, and like, the queer experience is very complex. And so you to try and describe what butch means or what femme means, or even what it meant back then is a very tricky and so we do have first-hand testimony. There are a lot of people who wrote articles and essays and things like that so that this issue wouldn't be forgotten, especially because it changed so quickly. It like fell out of favor by the 1970s And then kind of has had a resurgent sense. So there's a quote from Joan Nestle, who is actually the founder of the Lesbian Herstory Archives, who wrote this essay, "So butch femme relationships as I experienced them in the 1950s. This is we're complex, erotic statements filled with a deeply lesbian language of stance, dress, gesture, loving courage, and autonomy." So it's not just oh, this is someone who's more masculine. This is someone who's more feminine. It was seen by some people as like a political identity, as a gender identity, as a sexuality, as a relationship dynamic as something you know, there's talk at the time in the 1940s if you went into a lesbian bar, you would basically be asked, are you a butch or a femme? Because it was that was the norm and if you weren't, you were described as a kiki and you were like something else like you weren't, this wasn't the norm like you were just over there. JAZZA:  I love that kiki now in like-  ROWAN:  Totally different.  JAZZA:  -is like party is like I wouldn't mind being called the party to be completely honest. ROWAN:  Exactly. And there's also a lot of to that point of, it's not necessarily like a masculine and woman, woman is necessarily butch and a feminine woman is necessarily femme. So Alison Bechdel, the absolute legend has talked about the fact that that she doesn't talk about herself as butch, I think there's a quote, "It's a lovely word, but I'll take it if you give it to me. But I'm afraid I'm not butch enough to really claim it, because part of being butch is owning it and that whole aura around him." So it's not necessarily like this is the label you specifically fit into it kind of has more to it than just an aesthetic or just a, a connection with the, I guess more potentially cis normative/heteronormative idea of masculine versus feminine. And I think for like, as someone who identifies as femme in a lot of ways, and has over the years, like my experience of femininity, is very different to a straight woman's experience of femininity. And what it means to call myself femme is very different what it would mean if a straight woman was like, oh my god, I'm so femme. Like, it's a very different vibe.  JAZZA:  It lands weirdly, if I were to hear a cis straight woman say that it kind of feels like a misuse of the word even, where it feels like a very queer-specific word. ROWAN:  Yes. And this has been something that's been debated more recently, because obviously femme is an interesting one because femme itself is a French word. And so there have been like clothes-  JAZZA:  Means woman for our linguists.  ROWAN:  Thank you so much. Jazza. So there, there was like a time when there were loads of clothes and like H&M and stuff a couple of years ago that had like femme on them as an as like a term. And a lot of lesbians were like, oh, no, it was like, this is like, this is gonna get very confusing and also just seems a little bit out of touch. But it was a lot of people being like, I'm actually it's a French word. It's nothing to do with you people.  JAZZA:  Oh, my God, thank you so much internet. ROWAN:  These terms back in the 40s and 50s very much specifically were used in a very particular context. But obviously, it's expanded. So for example, if anyone has seen like Pose or seen Paris is Burning or seen any documentaries, or read anything about the ballroom scene, you'll know, oh, there are some categories include these terms, like butch realness, for example, is one that you'll see. And so we also have the use of the words now, with all other sexualities and also gender identities will claim it like I definitely know, like gay men who refer to themselves as femme, for example. JAZZA:  100%. It's somewhat of a reclaimed thing in the gay male community, because for such a long time, it is like there's the dating profile, cliche of “No Fats, Femmes, or Asians”, and that we've seen more recently a reclaiming of like femme as like something more celebratory for gay men who present themselves as more effeminate and more feminine.  ROWAN:  Yeah. And you'll see, we'll talk a bit when we talk about the movie in a second, about the way that this kind of interact. So for example, they talk about the fact that JJ is a touch me not stud, or a stone butch, which essentially is a butch who has a desire to touch rather than to be touched. So they'd rather give them receive, they're kind of not interested in being, let's say, sexually explored by their partner. But that's not the only way to be a butch, right? There are soft butches there are like people who don't necessarily subscribe to any of those labels around their sexual interests, like with their butc identity, it's not necessarily tied together in the same way. You can have a asexual butches, you can have a romantic butch, it's like, you know, all these things can exist together and same with femmes. And so, what we see is like stereotypes be presented by JJ, by Elle towards each other, they do some generalizations of like, oh, you butches are the same, we studs are the same like, you, like the femmes are always like this. And they often are, like, breaking down those stereotypes within the narrative, because it isn't like one way to be either one of them. I think that's very important. And I will also say specifically that like, stud as a term is like a black lesbian term, which is why it makes sense that it's used here with JJ and there's like a few other terms that were specifically within the black lesbian community. So that's the reason why I'm talking about butch here. But the word stud is kind of used in the movie interchangeably. And that's one of the reasons it's not necessarily interchangeable entirely for everyone. But it seems like specifically JJ in this movie kind of identifies with both labels. JAZZA:  It's really wonderful to see, like you were talking about this earlier, the butch, lesbian, and the femme gay, kind of like dynamic and like a friendship of people who identify as such at the center of like a romance story, and both of them having character development. Now, I'm not going to pretend that this is the most well-produced film that's ever been created. But just the fact that it holds those two characters at its center. Just really excited me throughout. And yeah, the transitions are bad. And yes, sometimes kind of like the writings, it like swings from left to right, a little jarringly. But that's what really kind of like hooked me into the story. It made me really excited to kind of like to know more about like the lives of JJ and Seb, the two main characters. ROWAN:  Alright. Shall we dig into the movie itself that now we've got all the kind of context out of the way for anyone who might be wondering about it. JAZZA:  Yes, I would love that. [theme] [midroll] JAZZA:  Hello, friends. Jazza here for the ad read and today, I want to talk to you about Shaker and Spoon. Shaker and Spoon is a subscription cocktail service that helps you learn how to make handcrafted cocktails, right at home. Every box comes with enough ingredients to make three different cocktail recipes developed by world-class mixologists. All you need to do is buy one bottle of that month's spirit and you have all you need to make 12 delicious drinks at home, though I wouldn't recommend drinking them all at once and I hope you'd enjoy them with friends as well. We've been having a genuine heatwave in the UK. Climate change, am I right? And honestly, a mojito would have gone a long way the last couple of days. And it just 40 to 50 American dollars a month plus the cost of the bottle. This is a super cost-effective way to enjoy craft cocktails and you can skip or cancel boxes anytime. Invite some friends over, class up your nightcaps or be the best houseguest of all time with your Shaker and Spoon box. Get $20 off your first box at shakerandspoon.com/queermovie. That's shakerandspoon.com/queermovie. As you know, Queer Movie Podcast is part of Multitude, a collection of creators of audio that builds great communities around nerdy stuff that we love, essentially. If you're looking for a new piece of nerdy stuff to get into, may I recommend The Newest Olympian the Percy Jackson and the Olympians series of books is far from underground, but I'm not gonna lie it passed me by as it did the host of The Newest Olympian, Mike Schubert. Mike is rectifying that by chatting with long-time Percy Jackson fans to cover all portions of the series, they will recap the plot beat by beat dive into the Greek mythology of the story and sing the praises of Percy's incredible snark. Are you a PJO superfan? Come venture down memory lane and laugh at Mike failing to predict what happens next. Have you like me never read the series and are looking for an excuse to do so. Read along with the podcast like a digital book club. New episodes every Monday, search for The Newest Olympian in your podcast app, or go to thenewestolympian, all in one word.com to start listening. Right, now back to our little Queer Movie Podcast. [theme] JAZZA:  So my act one is very much called The Party in its Aftermath. We're starting off strong. ROWAN:  Excellent.  JAZZA:  So we begin with an introduction of both Seb and JJ I have just written JJ is hot but fuck boy, JJ is hot but the fuck boy. Discuss. ROWAN:  I don't necessarily agree with that assessment. I mean, JJ is hot. I meant JJ being a fuck boy. JAZZA:  At the beginning, I definitely got this vibe. And there's things later on in terms of like how JJ reacts to the stuff that we learn about Elle. I don't know I stand, I stand by it. That's my interpretation of the character. ROWAN:  Okay, okay. Well, you know, have a debate in the associate comments, we don't really have comments. Have a debate in we're not on YouTube Jazza, this is a podcast. Have a debate on our Twitter slash Instagram, if you will, or our Discord that you can join us if you're a patron. Wow, I can't believe I slipped that seamlessly. JAZZA:  Yeah, really fantastic. So they share some disdain for straight men, we then go straight into watching them at the gay bar and seeing them kind of, like socialize in their natural environment. ROWAN:  Yes, we also find out that JJ and several wedding photographers, they work as wedding photographers together, which, you know, in the context of Britain at the time, is, like, made me kind of sad, in a way because I'm like, at the time when this was made, you couldn't get married as a gay person and so you could have a civil partnership. It was kind of in that in between years, but they're essentially like gay wedding photographers, photographing street people being able to get married, that sometimes it kind of shows you throughout the movie various like weddings that they go to, and some of the straight ones kind of end in tragedy. And it was that real thing of like, wow, the sanctity of marriage ey, straighties? Like I see how it is. JAZZA:  Yeah. Yeah, I actually really liked that dig that we ended up having because there's a few weddings that JJ goes to photograph and Seb is always there with like this tiny, like lighting. ROWAN:  With a little reflector that’s so small. JAZZA:  Yeah.  ROWAN:  We could not do anything for anyone who knows about photography, like the idea of a reflector, like bouncing light, making sure like the shadows are okay and it's so tiny it is it's like a dinner plate. JAZZA:  Yeah, it's very, very cute. But I do like that we get to see kind of like this world of all of the queer people who are maybe having a non-conventional kind of like poly celebration of their relationship where two of the members of the poly relationship are getting civilly partnered or married. There's one where somebody who was fleeing their home country because of persecution of their sexuality is getting a marriage of convenience with or less civil partnership of convenience with somebody. This was a good two years before we had equal marriage in the UK. So I really appreciated kind of like showing those different types of people looking at the system and being like, "Well, how do I make this work for me?" ROWAN:  And if anyone's like, “Wow, I can't believe that that refugee had to marry in order to stay in the country to prove that he was gay.” Can I recommend a documentary made by our very own Jazza John, that's actually very, very good. In which he did explore this exact topic of how ridiculous that is.  JAZZA:  It is.  ROWAN:  You're welcome, I love to promote you as well, Jazza. JAZZA:  You're very kind. Jazza John and all social media platform. ROWAN:  So yes, they go on this night out. And JJ flirts with a girl called Elle, then throws up on her shoes. JAZZA:  Yes. Oh, my God, this moment- ROWAN:  Just absolute chaos. JAZZA:  -came out of this meet cute is absolutely ridiculous. ROWAN:  It was a meeting not cute, essentially. And like, writes her name on her arm and then like, goes outside, because they're like, I just threw up on this girl shoes, I need to leave. And then Elle leaves with another woman, gets into a cab. And it's like, wow, what a great night out we just had incredible really struck out. And then on the way back, it doesn't improve because he gets harassed in the street. And one of the things that I really, like, can't not do now, because I've done so much media criticism, and I know so much about narrative structure is like look for the plot points of like, a classic narrative structure. And this is that moment where you're like, okay, cool. This is a moment of characterization that's going to come back and we will probably have changed at the end of the movie. And it is the decision that Seb really wants to fight back, like Seb. They get harassed and Seb's like, "Let me at em." And JJ is a lot calmer and basically is like, "We should only ever fight back if we know we're gonna win." And I'm like, ah, the theme stated, interesting. Well, I see if we'll come back to this, we'll see if this was a good decision by both of them. But I also really enjoy the fact that it does give us a complication of what potentially if this was a movie that was made by straight people, which this movie for context absolutely was not because Campbell Ex is the director, who I actually have had the pleasure to work with before. JAZZA:  Amazing.  ROWAN:  And also a couple of other people. So Mizz Kimberly, who's in this is one of the brides, the diva bride at the beginning on a queer web series a while ago, I did marketing for them, like years ago now. And so it was like really wild to like, watch again, this movie with someone that I've worked with and be like, oh my gosh, look at the earlier work. This is so cool. But yeah, basically like this idea of, you know what it is to be butch what it is to be masculine versus what is to be of a more feminine man. I feel like the stereotypes would be all the more feminine man will be the coward. The more feminine man will be the one who's like, "Leave it, leave it." And JJ will be the one the aggressive, black butch woman who would be like, "Oh, I'm all for the violence." And I really appreciated that, you know, we have this always subverting maybe like more of a cis straight audience's expectations really complicating the ideas of these identities that clearly like It's like being butch being a stud means a lot to JJ and it's a really integral part of her identity. But it's not simple. JAZZA:  Campbell has spoken that director has spoken a little bit about the development of Seb as a character as well and suggested that he's effeminate. But it's kind of has this internalized homophobia or femme phobia of around himself and that part of his identity. And that is the reason why he pushes up in his like turns to violence whenever the opportunity arises and also has this for rough boys. And this is I mean, there's a, we're talking about kind of like setting up of plots and narrative structures. There is a gargantuan Chekhov's gun here, where they mentioned like the guys that Seb he's going after and JJ says, "Your love of Rough Trade is going to get you in serious trouble." And I'm like, "Ahh..." ROWAN:  Hmm. I wonder if it's going to get him into serious trouble. Spoiler alert: It does. JAZZA:  So after JJ has I mean, recovered, I guess from less than glamorous evening, trying to get trade. JJ ends up working at this straight wedding, right, where I think the bride ends up coming and kissing JJ in the bathroom, which is all very, the scene is very, very odd. And then later, Elle happens to be there who JJ was trying to kind of like flirt with that I believe it's the night before or maybe it's a little bit later. Elle's ex is also at the wedding. Coincidence and they end up having like, like, Elle looks jealous and then comes up to JJ and writes a, write her number on JJ's shirt, and I guess they're dating now? ROWAN:  What a, what a power move just writing your number on someone's work shirt. JAZZA:  It's very last day in sixth form, isn't it?  ROWAN:  Oh, my God. It is. Love that. Like drawing a penis on their back afterwards and being like, "Ah! Bye! I'm out of here."  JAZZA:  Any Americans listen to this and confused. It's our culture don't come for us. ROWAN:  I will say that the thing in this movie that I didn't necessarily feel like was as developed as I wanted it to be was this romance. I really enjoyed the discussion and development that happens within the romance around sex around the boundaries of like that I really felt like that was way more developed than I've ever seen, especially in lesbian media, where we tend to have this weird like nonverbal, which I think there's a lot in it that really feels to me like the sexualization of lesbians, and the idea of like lesbian sex scenes within straight cinema. It baffles me that it happens in gay cinema as well. But within straight cinema, it feels like well, if they start talking about boundaries and consent, and whatever, that's not sexy, is it like you know, that maybe not. And so I really liked that we got a lot of like, discussion of those of those kinks discussion of like, you know, what was going on with the two of them while in the relationship. But I didn't necessarily feel like the relationship itself. I was, I was super convinced by especially, we'll talk when we get to the third acts. But as with all like romantic dramas, or romantic comedies, there's the bit where they break up and the bit, they get back together. And that, for me is always the same as like when you have a mystery film. And if the mystery isn't concluded in a satisfactory way, it kind of like the film was, even if the first two acts were incredible, the third act can let it down, specifically. Because of that, and I feel like with romance movies, it's the same if you don't feel like the character who has done something wrong, has redeemed themselves well enough, or that their communication has been sorted out, or that they've changed enough. I never really buy into that last one. And I feel like in this movie, it kind of that was the thing that I was a bit iffy on was like, they haven't actually changed at all. They've just gotten back together. And I don't necessarily think that that's as convincing in terms of like,  wow, what a good romance they've had. JAZZA:  We'll talk about this in a bit, but I think the movie tries to do that. But the swing of change, like the slip up that JJ has, I think just comes left field. And then, therefore, it's like it feels quite unbelievable. And then when we have like, the resolution of JJ is just like, Oh, you are the same as I thought you were at the beginning of the movie. But we'll talk about that in a minute.  ROWAN:  In a little bit. We love to just give you a little tease. JAZZA:  Can we talk about very briefly, the vlogs that JJ does. ROWAN:  Please do, Jazza.  JAZZA:  That kind of like break up. So throughout the movie, there were kind of like these mini, it's generous to call them vignettes like they're, they're styled as JJ is uploading to YouTube. But it looks like YouTube in 2007, when everything was gray, and like they were boobs in thumbnails. And JJ has a video blog where there are discussions, or JJ like is raising the problems of relationships and all of those kinds of things and always signs off with, let me know what you think. But then we never get any response. There's no light chatter of kind of like what the audience is saying. We don't know if anybody is watching these videos, and they don't really quite understand, or while I was watching, I didn't quite understand why they were there. After I had a dig and looked at some of the interviews that Campbell Ex had done. It was quite interesting that it seems like the inspiration behind this was the fact that Campbell couldn't find any very much Like butch representation in any media, even queer media at the time when this film was being put together, and there's this quote where Campbell says about butch representation. This sort of woman is rarely on the big screen TV or even in LGBT press, so I had to go searching elsewhere. I found women like JJ on YouTube as stud lesbians are excluded from other mainstream LGBT and straight media. They are creating their own stories online. And then all of a sudden, I was like, oh, I actually really liked the vlogs. Because I don't know if you remember this era of YouTube, Rown. but it used to be a joke that everybody around like 2007 2008 that everyone on YouTube was either gay or Asian. And it was people who were not cast in comedic roles or weren't given opportunities to pursue careers in the media, who saw YouTube and started using YouTube as as a way of being able to craft their own stories tell their own stories. And I actually quite like that this film that is doing so much for telling stories of characters that we so very rarely see, kind of does a little nod and an homage to user-generated content on early web 2.0 Even though it is god awfully terrible. ROWAN:  I really, I felt like you had a very strong reaction when you were like, I didn't like the vlogs before we were talking about it. I do think that some of the stuff that's brought up in the vlogs is really interesting. I really enjoyed the fact that we were talking about it very early about, yeah, about deltas about lesbian sex about the dynamics of butch and femme about- JAZZA:  I love the JJ calls like the shall we say phallic-y creative dildo, the alien dildo? Just like, yeah, 100% ROWAN:  I know you people are into this. But also the, like, she talks about the idea of like, assumptions that are made about sex. And the you know, the idea that see, you know, some feminine women don't want to be fucked at all. Like they're asexual lesbians are pillow princesses. They're like stone butchers. And she says like, it takes all sorts to make the lesbian nation like, I think that that's really a healthy thing considering how like, I don't think I've really ever seen representation of a stone butch like in media as a thing. Let alone it being talked about and explained and discussed in a way JAZZA:  Could you describe what a stone butch is? Because I've actually never heard the term until you started saying it. ROWAN:  So this was the touch me not stud. JAZZA:  Yeah.  ROWAN:  It's the same thing. So stone butch. I mean, so, so much blues is probably the most famous exam like way that people might have heard of the phrase I would say outside of lesbian context. Essentially, it's someone who doesn't want to be touched specifically a butch because you can have like stone femmes. But a stone butch is someone who doesn't want to be touched sexually, which is why you'll see in the movie, like Elle tries to go down on JJ a couple of times on the roof. And if I feel like if you didn't have the context of the vlogs you might be like, just JJ like not like a maybe JJ likes, doesn't like it being public. Or maybe JJ is okay with it when they've been on a few dates. Like why is JJ saying no? JAZZA:  Not knowing about the stone butch thing, I read it as body dysmorphia. ROWAN:  So this is a this is interesting, right? Because you if you have you talk about the idea of like mask lesbians in the 1940s, then are all going to be cis, do you know what I mean? And like, and like you're gonna have people who are using the communities that are available at the time who if they were born 50 years later might well be like, "Well, I am in fact a trans man." or, "I am in fact, nonbinary." or whatever that might be. And so there are definitely elements of a sort of gender dysphoria that you can see within that, but it's not necessarily like linked to that, you know, these things are complicated. And so when you have this idea of like, I would rather give, I would rather do things to you like that's what satisfies me in terms of sensuality, sexuality, romance, whatever it might be. And that leads like a discussion that JJ and Elle openly have about this. And Elle says kind of like I really like you like I'm really good at it. Like I really like giving, and there's this moment of like, okay, is this gonna be a deal breaker between them and JJ? Like, I mean, I really don't like that happening. And I was like, you know, fine, like, I don't have to like I can ask, but I don't have to have it. JAZZA:  Yeah, I absolutely loved the representation of like, Elle and JJ sex in this movie.  ROWAN:  Me too. JAZZA:  Like, It was still super fucking sexy. And actually, the conversation was really hot as well. And JJ even I loved the line where JJ says, "Where is it?" It's like, you don't need to eat everything from the lesbian buffet or something along those lines, and I'm just like, that's a fantastic way of doing it. ROWAN:  That's how it goes. But yeah, no, I think that the vlogs allowed us to explain in a way that was like, gave us a framing device for being more like didactic in a way but like in a conversational way. Like it wasn't because there's no one really in JJ's life that would need to have this stuff explained to them. Like I think Seb and JJ have been friends for so long that like JJ, like Seb have already heard all this from JJ, it would have been really weird if Seb have been like I don't understand about your sex life. Like, they don't want to talk about it. Like that's not how the relationship works. So having this vlog allows an audience to hear about this. And to understand that this is what's going on without it being like weirdly shoehorned into dialogue, which that was like a good a good use of that, as well as all the stuff you said about like representation and kind of being a nod to that kind of user-generated content as well. [theme] JAZZA:  So my Act 2, it still has a working title, something along the lines of dating JJ is awkward when they go on their first date to Victoria Park, which I really enjoyed because I live around the corner from it. I think it's a it's a terrible date. I don't think JJ really asks anything about Elle's interests, and maybe would have eliminated any of the trouble that they have later on in their relationship. But there you go. We ended up as well as what after the consensual sex makingm JJ ends up getting targeted for I don't know why I'm walking like, JJ gets beaten up. So gets clocked for not being a cis guy and then gets chased by a load of guys down the road and beaten up, ends up going into a corner shop, it looks like with two black owners. And I really loved the moment where the woman who owns the shop says, "Some people don't understand special people like you.", which is a phrase that I'm 100% stealing and using in the future. ROWAN:  I just you say that, but all I can think of in the future, the use that you would do with me is if I ever said to you something like someone doesn't understand, you'll be like, "Oh, yeah, some people just start understand special people like you." I'm waiting for that to happen in our friendship, which also is very, very quickly because I've got Seb at the beginning. There's a lot of ribbing between Seb and JJ that we see. And I was like, what great British friendship representation like this to people who love each other. Like because when JJ is explaining why she's friends with Seb, she's like, "Well, I can't be friends with a femme because that gets complicated."  JAZZA:  Yeah. ROWAN:  "I can't be friends with a straight man because gross. I can't be friends with another stud because we'd be checking out the same talent. So I guess I gotta be friends with a gay man. And also, I guess I love him." But like, like, and I'm like, god, that's such a British friendship to a T. It's actually what I'd say about you. JAZZA:  Yeah, exactly. It did make me think this is like another universe, a very different universe, but it is very similar. So JJ goes home ad Elle is there to kind of like lend support. Seb also arrives, and Elle's trying to convince JJ to go to the police and report the attack. Where Seb goes, "Oh, JJ doesn't want to report it and become part of their shit-stem." Some like a like, a system, great- ROWAN:  Incredible.  JAZZA:  -play there. Yeah. Absolute legend. Shakespeare of his time. I totally kind of like understand that didn't like that lack of desire to engage with a system that historically has not worked for black people, has not worked for queer people, and going to report things to the police where there's a lot an awful lot of abuse that came from those spaces historically. ROWAN:  So after JJ has had this, like horrible, horrible experience, the morning afterward, we start to get we've had a little bit of tension between Elle and Seb. Bot necessarily between them specifically. But you know, Seb, not thinking that Elle is good for JJ. And now we get this idea of like, okay, there's a lot of jealousy here. There's a lot of like, best friend versus new partner who is spending time with because JJ has forgotten that she's meant to be going to breakfast with Seb and Elle, rather than being like, oh, go and have breakfast with your friend or like, oh, can I tag along or whatever is going on? Just kind of get angry that she's gonna go and she's like, why did you not tell him to go away? Like I'm here? JAZZA:  I hated all of this.  ROWAN:  Yeah. JAZZA:  Like, I just, I also don't think the setup really made very much sense or because we hadn't really seen Elle and Seb interaction before. And so I wasn't really understanding where this animosity was coming from, you know? ROWAN:  Yeah. And they basically this all ends up in a fight and Seb quits the photography job. And so the conclusion of this is that JJ apologizes to Elle with some flowers and we get a classic date montage. Classic, good little montage. We love a good montage in a queer movie specifically. Of course. JAZZA:  Of course, everyone has to have it. We eventually ended up at, I believe it's Elle's flat, where, like Elle keeps on saying, Oh, you're not going to think about me the same way, if you know what I do as a job, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla. They have a real again, a really cool sexy scene. And I don't think I've ever seen BDSM with this level of kind of like emotional connection in kind of like cinema in any way, if I'm completely honest, outside of one that is trying to kind of like educate people about how to partake in those kinds of relationships. ROWAN:  Although if anyone is looking for a good BDSM rom-com, like something that's more light, and that goes into like, a similar vibe in terms of having these scenes which are like negotiated or discussed whatever Love and Leashes on Netflix as a South Korean movie, it is delightful. And I fully want a full TV show of these characters. They're so fun. JAZZA:  If you're looking for something that's educational, as well, What's the Safe Word on YouTube is a very good-  ROWAN:  Oh, I love Safe Word! Anyway, sorry, we'll continue with this. We're not just gonna give you, here's recommendations-  JAZZA:  Your reading list. ROWAN:  All recommendations, here's what you can go do. I agree with you completely. I think that we very rarely see negotiate incidents of kink. And specifically, within the context of this, we have a, I guess, a realistic scenario in which one person starts to do something or request something that the other person is like, I've not really done this before, but I guess fine, but that communication makes it the way that they communicate kind of makes it work like they clearly have like are going to have these conversations afterward. So like, Elle gets JJ to slap her. And but keeps encouraging is like, "Can you do it harder?" Like, "I like this like this is something I'm into." And JJ is not necessarily into the idea of like sadism within BDSM but seems very into the idea of like servicing out. Like which makes sense as like a stone butch like the idea of like, okay, cool. I'm doing something that my partner likes. And this is something we're communicating like, she's telling me how hard she's telling me that this is what I want. And I really enjoyed that I really enjoyed the fact that they were discussing and negotiating and like having a conversation around it as it was happening. But it didn't take away from how much they were both enjoying it. And then we have like, a little bit later, we know that they've clearly discussed it even further, because we talk about like Elle talks about the idea of like, oh, you know, the kind of stuff I like, like this is something we've discussed. And I kind of enjoyed that. It's like a nice little checking in. Are you okay, does this work? Which we kind of saw previously within the scenes where Elle was asking about like, can I? Are we not going to have sex? Like how are we going to have sex? Can I touch you here? Can I touch you there like, felt very, I really enjoyed that. I really felt that was good. JAZZA:  Yeah, it is very good. It then does a whole 180 though, where Elle discloses that she is a dominatrix, specifically for she talks about being a dominatrix for white men, and kind of like playing on the fantasy and getting financial gain off of white men who want to be dominated by a black woman. JJ completely loses it. Does, and I'll be honest, this is a bit where like, the movie loses me a bit where that reaction that JJ has kind of like loses it ends up leaving, they basically break up after Elle discloses her job. And I was like, after all of the kind of like, great communication that we have had up to this point, JJ then like throws toys out of a pram, like it. This didn't make a lot of sense to me and went from zero to 100 incredibly quickly. What did you, what did you think, Rowan? ROWAN:  I kind of agree with that. I felt like we need a little bit more character development or a little bit more character revelation for me to feel like that was believable. JAZZA:  Right.  ROWAN:  Like because we had had some hints I think at the idea of like, people's past trauma coming into it. So like Elle, when she was getting annoyed at JJ for blowing her over Seb in that breakfast scene. Kind of says like, if you start flicking me around now, it will just continue and I'm like, okay, there's clearly been a relationship you've been in that's happened, that something like that has happened, but you never really get a scene in which they actually have a conflict or discussion where they talk about the idea of like, I was projecting this thing that happened with my ex on to you or, like, you know, there's lots of ways that this could have been resolved. And the frustrating thing about it is the acting in that scene is great from both of them. Like I was like this is kind of painful to watch because there's like, they're both just like it never gets to a point of physical violence, right? JAZZA:  Yeah.  ROWAN:  It's not a scene that I feel like I I've seen in like straight movies, it feels really icky. Where the guy starts like getting like- JAZZA:  Like, punches a wall. ROWAN:  -angry or punches the wall or like shakes the woman or whatever. It's very clear that JJ is like, very angry at this situation and very much like not into it. But all that JJ wants us to leave. JJ is like I'm not wanting to hurt you. I'm not doing the thing and I'm just trying to leave and like the emotion from Elle, like I felt like that was some of the most like intense unbelievable acting in terms of like an isolated scene. But the fact that you're right, there wasn't necessarily any indication that JJ would feel that way. Because there's lots of reasons why within the context of this, you could add something to the character that would make more sense to do with that. So is it specifically because it's sex versus love? Is it that it's men? Is it? You know, is there some insecurity of JJ's? It's like very specific, that would mean that this would be an issue, like, what is it? And so that, yeah, I was I definitely agree with you that it wasn't I wasn't necessarily like, "Oh, yes. This is all making sense. This was inevitable when this comes out." And I think that's what's really interesting for me, is like, Seb comes to Elle's defense. JAZZA:  Yeah, yeah, that's right. And I feel like that's meant to be kind of like the resolution that we see. I'll be honest, this, this whole thing didn't make sense to me. Like, he's first of all, warning  JJ, about, "Oh, you're not gonna like it when he found out what she does as a job." and JJ's like, "Oh, I don't care, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." then they have that falling out after JJ gets jumped, and then Seb comes in and starts defending Elle. I don't know that. Like, I understand what the film was trying to do. But I just feel like the connections didn't happen, as well as I would have wanted them to. Maybe we do a 10-year remake. Like, who knows? ROWAN:  Maybe it was just like, sub solidarity because we also at this point- JAZZA:  Oh, yeah. ROWAN:  -find out that Seb is like on the forums, on the apps, specifically as a sub. JAZZA:  Oh, hold on. We're about to go into Act Three.  ROWAN:  Oh, here we go.  [theme] JAZZA:  I have called Act Three: The Legacy of Manchester Jeff.  ROWAN:  Yeah. Incredible.  JAZZA:  Who is a thank you so much. It's one of my greatest work. Manchester Jeff is an anonymous profile, I guess, on I'm pretty sure is- ROWAN:  I know. You're talking about what's anonymous about Manchester Jeff that's entirely searchable, and very safe? JAZZA:  YSure. 100%. It is very, like early 2010s gaydar dating. For that I did. Like I was almost triggered, I'll be completely honest from seeing the interface on screen that Seb is partaking on before we had Grindr, my little baby gays, we had to go on to forums and tell people where we were. ROWAN:  ASL? ASL? JAZZA:  ASL!  ROWAN:  Age Sex Location. JAZZA:  Oh, my god. Do you know how long I was using these chat rooms before I actually knew what ASL meant.  ROWAN:  Incredible.  JAZZA:  It was years, Rowan. It was years. ROWAN:  Incredible.  JAZZA:   There was a moment that I just need to address.  ROWAN:  Okay, please address. JAZZA:  Where Seb, is waking in the kitchen. And then JJ walks in on seven one king in the kitchen. And I'm like Seb, "That's what happens when you wank in the kitchen." ROWAN:  Maybe he's into that maybe he's into the thrill. JAZZA:  With JJ? I'm not okay with this.  ROWAN:  So they basically we're setting up here. We've been sprinkling in that something bad is gonna happen to Seb as we discussed earlier.  JAZZA:  Yeah. The aforementioned Checkoff's gun is going to explode. ROWAN:  Yeah and JJ and Seb decide that they want to go for a picnic, which honestly very me, I felt very represented as a gay a decadent picnic is very me. JAZZA:  Yeah.  ROWAN:  And so they go for this picnic and ended up going with the drug dealer who we haven't mentioned yet, but there's a drug dealer who fancy Seb and basically it's implied is running away from some clientele, gets into their car through a window and just decides to join them on the picnic. Love that. Manchester Joe, however, turns up at the park, very out of the blue and, Seb's like, it's fate. It's Cupid's arrows like let's go I'm gonna go and have some sex with that man in the bushes. Meanwhile, the drug dealer who it turns out is called Tristan. JAZZA:  Tristan de Mortimer. ROWAN:  Perry to his friends. JAZZA:  Yeah.  ROWAN:  Just like casually just continuing their picnic as you know. It's not going well in the woods for our, our lovely boy Seb who essentially tries to have a blowjob, reciprocated and this man who apparently is not even from Manchester, I  JAZZA:  I know.  ROWAN:  It's basically like, I'm not gay.  JAZZA:  I'm not gay. ROWAN:  And therefore I'm going to beat you up which, you know, isn't great, gang. JAZZA:  It isn't. There's also quite a weird kind of like juxtaposition that the film tries to do. Where I was like, is this sex in the woods scene meant to be funny, until Seb gets beaten up? Because you have Seb orally pleasuring often from Manchester Jeff. ROWAN:  Wait, is he called Jeff or Joe? JAZZA:  I think it's Jeff, isn't it? ROWAN:  Who knows? Whatever Manchester Joe? JAZZA:  I don't think it's his real name anyway.  ROWAN:  Yeah, it's that's very - sorry, could we just checked his passport real quick. his driver's license?  JAZZA:  I'm not sure is that the right spelling? While he's sucking off Manchester Jeff, they pop the champagne like a little. And I'm like, That's really funny. But then Seb immediately gets beaten up and bloodied and comes back to his friends. And I'm like, I don't I don't understand what the emotional takeaway is meant to be from the scene. It was really really odd for me. And then we very quickly go into Tristan de Mortimer so, Perry to his friends who has been pining after Seb for a while, then like looks after Seb gives him an Ibuprofen or something. ROWAN:  Ibuprofen.  JAZZA:  Ibuprofen or something I know how I want to pronounce it, Rowan. Other people are wrong. ROWAN:  It's very I did that line did make me like do like a half laugh out loud. When I was just like a drug dealer giving this poem that given this man a pill, and JJ's was immediate like, "What the, What the fuck are you doing to give him a drug?" He's like, "It's Ibuprofen." JAZZA:  Yeah.  ROWAN:  Like, JJ, god won't even think that of me. Which is great.  JAZZA:  And then they basically get together. Tristan has to read some Shakespeare.  ROWAN:  It's classic for comfort, okay? It's classic, tending him by the bedside. It's a classic romance tropes all coming together. Reading some Shakespeare they just are together from then on. You just don't even question it. That it's kind of like a cool sub storyline is wrapped up, I guess. Let's see what the ending for JJ and Elle is at that point. JAZZA:  What is it, Rowan? Go on, tell me.  ROWAN:  Well, essentially, JJ and Seb go for a night owl. And Elle is there but doesn't want to talk to JJ. So they have this big fight they get banned from the club. Seb's like okay, maybe I'll give up and Perry's like, don't give up. And you're like, okay, just because it worked for you, Perry, where you just hung around long enough to like for the boy to need an ibuprofen. Like doesn't mean it's going to work for everyone. They also at this point, go and do like a wedding with a, like a groom hasn't turned up at the wedding. And so like JJ is like love doesn't exist, like the all of this is stupid. But Seb and Perry getting engaged. No indication as to how long it's been- JAZZA:  Nope. ROWAN:  -since all this happened. It could have been a week, could have been five years, who can tell? And when Perry proposes in front of JJ, it's like, wow, I guess romance does exist. And so asks Elle to meet her where their first date was. And at first, it's like, oh, no, is Elle gonna turn up or not? JJ thinks not, throws down the flowers, and kicks them a bit. And it's like, "My life sucks!" But it turns out Elle just had a broken heel, classic femme. Ugh [Jazza laughs] and does turn up until they kiss and makeup. And that's how it goes. And then like Elle has the rings from earlier and they agreed to go slow. No promises, even though they just exchanged wedding rings. JAZZA:  Rings, yeah.  ROWAN:  And later, like the kind of epilogue scene as JJ taking photos at Perry and Seb's wedding. JJ is best man obviously. And then the like, finishes on the last vlog which is like, what is true love? How do you know if you found it? The end. JAZZA:  The end? No answer. No answer.  ROWAN:  Who knows?  JAZZA:  What a cliffhanger.  ROWAN:  So yeah, this I feel like what I was saying earlier about the fact that Act Three doesn't really like feel like it has a lot of like, okay, and now we've resolved the issues. Because we also don't see which is a thing that happened in quite a lot of rom coms where you will only see one or romantic dramas, which I guess is kind of goes into you only see one person's point of view from the couple. But I'm like, what has, why has Elle changed her mind? Like why is Elle gone from having this like really intense fight with JJ about like, they never discussed the fact that Elle is still doing this job. Like there's no resolution of that. JAZZA:  Yeah, resolution of that. They're just like, "Oh, I really like you now." Okay, guess. Sure, sure. ROWAN:  So yeah, my conclusion is essentially, that I mean, well, maybe we'll do it when we get to the actual rating section, I guess, like my official rating for it. But I do think that that last third, the last act kind of I was like, what, how are these dots connecting? And I think especially because we had this scene that was extremely like hinted at throughout, which was Seb being beaten up. But we'd had JJ go through something very similar earlier, with three men beat her up in the street, and she had to like flee to get away from it. And then we have this thing with Seb who gets kicked in the ribs like two times and then Manchester Joe runs off. And I was like, I kind of expected that to be something like a bigger payoff, like in an awful way because obviously, it was gonna be a horrible traumatic scene that was going to happen that was hinted at, but it kind of felt like it was just like mirroring this thing that we'd already seen with JJ we've seen a character go through. So yeah, it was a bit of a stretch. I didn't really quite know what to make of like the whole structure overall. JAZZA:  I think Seb and his story arc make more sense than JJs. ROWAN:  I don't think you're wrong.  JAZZA:  Yes, Seb has a better structure to his story and I feel like it like over usually we see the whole thing through JJ. But it would have made more sense for this story with the characters as they are written now to be done from maybe Seb's perspective, which I think is a shame because obviously, they're like, I, I love JJ. I just feel that there were some threads like the beats were there, but they weren't connected very well. ROWAN:  Well, I guess with that in mind, shall we see what we ultimately rated the movie?  JAZZA:  Let's dive into our ratings. [theme] JAZZA:  So anybody who doesn't know we rate all of our movies that we review by awarding it bars of the six-barred rainbow flag. So any combination of red, orange, yellow, green, blue, or purple. Rowan, have you decided what colors and how many you're going to give? ROWAN:  So I think that I'm going to give this movie, oooh. JAZZA:  your face. ROWAN:  I'm that was the face I'm making is like, "Oh, I hadn't really decided." Because I feel like it's getting points for me on a meta-level. Like, there was stuff about the performance of the movie I enjoyed. I wasn't like, well, I'm bored. I'm gonna switch this off. But I also feel like the idea of having like a black butch lesbian as the main character in a film itself is worth a stripe.  JAZZA:  Yeah. ROWAN:  So I'm gonna go with three. JAZZA:  Interesting. ROWAN:  And I'm gonna go with, like red. Because I feel like we've got-  JAZZA:  Some life.  ROWAN:  -got the life. JAZZA:  Yeah. yeah. ROWAN:  Got all that jazz. I'm gonna go with spirit, the purple because I feel like we got some characters a lot of spirit. And I'm gonna go with green. Because someone got sucked off in the woods. JAZZA:  The woods. Yes. Also, I was thinking Ibuprofen, that's not a natural thing. That's literally something that we created, I'm very similar to you. I think I'm only gonna give it 2.  ROWAN:  That was what I was trying to decide. JAZZA:  Because of that third act, and I'm gonna give it life because they're certainly living.  ROWAN:  They are living.  JAZZA:  And you know what the spirit of this movie is fantastic. Like, it's got proverbial balls, and really tries to sell a story that hasn't really been told before and I don't think has been told since. So yeah, there we go.  ROWAN:  Those are our ratings. We'd love to hear if you agree with them or not, which you can do if you follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Queer Movie Pod. Because you'll be able to message us directly tag us in your thoughts, because we would love to hear what you think especially with a movie like this where it's a movie a lot of people have never heard of. It's more of a kind of niche thing. And I think one of the things we want to do with the podcast was let people hear about more niche movies or movies, they wouldn't necessarily find themselves on like the top 10 list of Hollywood releases of the last 20 years kind of thing. JAZZA:  And if you love the idea of being able to keep up to date, and open your minds to like new queer movies, consider being a Patreon then you can join our Queer Movie Podcast Discord, where every month, we watch a new LGBTQ+ movie. We're about to go off and do one we're going to watch Ammonite which we're so excited to watch another lesbian period drama, it's going to be great. ROWAN:  Wow, the homophobia coming from me right now, Jazza is just so sad. JAZZA:  Period drama is not my thing and it's, it's fine. But yeah, if you support us on Patreon, not only do you get access to that Discord, but we also do a monthly newsletter for certain levels. We give you lists of other LGBTQ+ movies under particular genres that we do. It's a really good time, and you also get to support queer content on the internet.  ROWAN:  And that's pretty great.  [theme] ROWAN:  Thank you so much for listening. You can follow us on Twitter to keep up to date with everything podcast-related. JAZZA:  If you feel entertained, please do think about supporting us over on Patreon. Our patrons really do allow us to put in the hours of research and recording that goes into these episodes. So sincerely, thank you. One of our perks on Patreon is a Queer Movie Watch Along every last Saturday of the month exclusively for our patrons hosted on our Discord. Gay fun really is had by all so come join us.  ROWAN:  The Queer Movie Podcast is edited by Julia Schifini. We're also part of Multitude Productions so make sure you check out all of that other awesome podcasts full of both fun and frivolity. JAZZA:  Make sure you follow and subscribe to this here podcast so that you are primed for our next episode. Thank you very much, my darlings. You will hear us very soon. Toodaloo.  ROWAN:  Bye! Transcriptionist: KM