344 SelfWork: A Daughter's Determination To Save Lives After Her Mother's Suicide: A Conversation with Donna's Law Creator, Katrina Brees

This interview focuses on suicide prevention so please listen carefully. Here are the international suicide prevention crisis numbers (USA is not 988). I want to read you the first part of the email I sent to our guest today for SelfWork. "Katrina good morning. I’m the host of The SelfWork Podcast and I just saw the CBS Sunday Morning interview about your mom, the way she died, and your actions since it happened. Let me say I’m so sorry about the struggles your mom had all her life and how her bipolar disorder could take her in such destructive directions, ending in her suicide." "I’d love to interview you for SelfWork. I very much admire what you’re doing and think it’s such a brilliant way of working through the complete mess that gun control conversations can create. It’s positive. Proactive. And I know many of my own clients would’ve signed up." Who is Katrina Brees? She’s a grieving daughter turned activitist. And I think she’s come up with a brilliant way of bridging the debate over gun control versus the Second Amendment  - as far as it pertains to suicide. It’s called Donna’s Law. That was her mother’s name. And her mother, who hated guns and had often hospitalized herself because she was suicidal, killed herself with a gun. This week you may notice a new sponsor of SelfWork! It’s the Jordan Harbinger show – and the ad is in a different format – what’s called an introcast - so that you can listen to that information in just a couple of minutes! I’ve found his show entertaining and intrigiuing and more than welcome his team to SW! Vital Links!  We welcome back BiOptimizers and Magnesium Breakthrough as a returning sponsor to SelfWork and they have a new offer! Just click here! Make sure you use the code "selfwork10" to check out free product! You can hear more about this and many other topics by listening to my podcast, SelfWork with Dr. Margaret Rutherford. Subscribe to my website and receive my weekly newsletter including a blog post and podcast! If you’d like to join my FaceBook closed group, then click here and answer the membership questions! Welcome!   My book entitled Perfectly Hidden Depression is available here! Its message is specifically for those with a struggle with strong perfectionism which acts to mask underlying emotional pain. But the many self-help techniques described can be used by everyone who chooses to begin to address emotions long hidden away that are clouding and sabotaging your current life. And it's available in paperback, eBook or as an audiobook! And there's another way to send me a message! You can record by clicking below and ask your question or make a comment. You’ll have 90 seconds to do so and that time goes quickly. By recording, you’re giving SelfWork (and me) permission to use your voice on the podcast. I’ll look forward to hearing from you! Episode Transcript Speaker 1: (00:10) This is Self-Work, and I'm Dr. Margaret Rutherford at Self-Work. We'll discuss psychological and emotional issues common in today's world and what to do about them. I'm Dr. Margaret and Self-Work is a podcast dedicated to you taking just a few minutes today for your own self-work. Speaker 1: (00:29) Hello and welcome or welcome back to Self-Work. I'm Dr. Margaret, and I'm so glad you're here. Before we get to the actual intro for this interview, I wanna make sure you know that it focuses on suicide prevention, so please listen carefully. We have a great interview today. Maybe a little controversial, but I certainly hope not. I want to read you the first part of the email I sent to our guest today for self-work. Her name is Katrina Breeze. Katrina, good morning. I'm the host of the Self-Work podcast, and I just saw the CBS Sunday morning interview about your mom, the way she died, and your actions since it happened. Let me say, I'm so sorry about the struggles your mom had all her life and how her bipolar disorder could take her in such destructive directions ending in her suicide. I've heard many stories and have my own concern and passion about how destructive perfectionism and suicide are linked, but that's not the point of this email. Speaker 1: (01:28) This morning, I'd sat down to write an episode on suicide, but I decided to switch on CBS's Sunday morning and saw your interview. That's all the synergy I needed to find out how to reach out to you. I'd love to interview you for self-work. I very much admire what you're doing and think it's such a brilliant way of working through the complete mess that gun control conversations can create. It's positive, proactive, and I know many of my own clients would've signed up. That was my email. Now, who is Katrina Breeze? She's a grieving daughter turned activist, and I think she's come up with a brilliant way of bridging the gun debate, as well as the debate about the Second Amendment as far as it pertains to suicide. Her mother was named Donna, and it's called Donna's Law. And her mother who hated guns and had often hospitalized herself because she was suicidal, killed herself with a gun. Speaker 1: (02:25) Here's some facts you may not know before you turn off. Hold on. Firearms are the most common means of suicide in 2020. Firearms were used in 53% of suicides with 24,292 gun suicide victims annually. This is a leading cause of death for Americans... That's more than 66 people each day. Many suicide attempts are impulsive, and the vast majority of survivors do not keep trying until they succeed. But people who choose firearms as their suicide method very rarely survive. About 85% of gun suicide attempts end in death. Donna's law, also known as the "voluntary do not sell list", gives a person the option to voluntarily and confidentially put their own names into the federal background check system to prevent impulsive gun purchases for a suicide attempt. Donna Nathan should have been able to have suspended her own ability to buy a gun, and that's what we're talking about today. I think it's an incredible solution to a very sticky problem. Before we hear from Katrina, here's a quick message from BiOptimizers Magnesium Breakthrough. Speaker 1: (03:49) Hey guys, I wanna share with you that recently I've been working on some very important projects that have very short deadlines, as always, right? Seems everything today is a sap anyway, I have not been able to keep up with all of my self-care routine. I certainly haven't had breaks to have proper meals, and I'm drinking way too much ice tea. 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Speaker 1: (05:12) Again, I wanna stress Katrina's not talking about limiting gun sales to anyone, but people who want to voluntarily say, I don't need to buy a gun. So I hope you'll listen to her story. She's passionate and she wants to save people like her mom. Katrina, can you tell SelfWork listeners about why you are, you know, of course about your mother and then how you're using her death as a momentum for this incredible project and incredible legislation? Speaker 2: (05:55) Sure. Um, I'll start with what the legislation is. Um, Donna's law is a voluntary tool that people can use to prevent themselves from purchasing a gun. Mm-hmm. . So it enables somebody to put themselves on a list that is confidential, reversible, and does not interfere with the second Amendment in order to prevent an impulsive gun purchase in an episode of suicidality or, or for whatever other reason they want to prohibit themselves from guns, um, from a gun sale. And, um, I lost my mom in 2018 to an impulsive gun suicide. She picked up her phone and she typed in how to hang herself and Google told her that the better idea would be to buy a handgun. Yeah. Um, then helped direct her to the closest gun store where she essentially pressed go on her phone and was dead. Very shortly after that, she took it to the park and she shot herself. I had no idea at that time that it was that easy to buy a gun where we live. I, it, it is still shocking to me and completely uncomfortable that I live in a place where it is that easy and that fast to buy a gun. Um, even for somebody that has absolutely no training, um, no license, no waiting period. Right. Um, she had been, uh, in psychiatric hospitalization three times before this that did not. And Speaker 1: (07:41) She had gone voluntarily for those. Correct. She, because she really wanted help and she knew she had bipolar disorder and she accepted that and she was working with her doctors, and there were times when she was really well, I mean, well mm-hmm. , she was doing great. She was managing bipolar disorder well mm-hmm. Speaker 2: (07:59) . Yeah. Uh, and our family really did everything and she did everything, and she was very knowledgeable. Our our family has many doctors in it. We were very supportive. Um, we were on top of it every day. . Yeah. Um, my mom's partner, even during this episode that she was having quit his job and stayed home all day long with her to supervise her, and it still wasn't enough. Mm-hmm. Um, because it was just minutes away from her being able to get a gun. And, um, so I mean, immediately after this happened to my family, I was like, how could this be like? Right. I talked to some lawyer friends that had guns, and I was like, do, "How could my mom be sold a gun after she was in the psychiatric hospital?" This, you know, I thought that was impossible. And, um, everything about the gun sale was legal. And, um, at that point I was just completely committed to, to changing that and, um, used the massive tidal wave of energy, that grief and trauma. That's right. And shock . And I surfed this, that wave of energy into Donna's law immediately. I mean, within, within 24 hours of knowing about her death, I was having conversations with, um, the gun policy maker for Amnesty International, and we were conceiving this legislation. Um, it was it very immediate that, that I chose to This Speaker 1: (09:51) Is how you were grieving. I mean, this is how Speaker 2: (09:53) You Yeah. And I was, I was scared too of, of, um, other ways that I could get into to, I don't know, process that trauma. Um, you know, I've, uh, I have a lot of friends that have experienced trauma, and I've watched them after that make their lives worse in a lot of ways. Yes, Speaker 1: (10:18) It Speaker 2: (10:19) Can. And having something like this happen, it was so obvious how I could make my life worse immediately to me, . Uh, and, uh, and, and Speaker 1: (10:30) That happens a lot in a family. That happens in with friends that happens, you know, in communities. Um, there's certainly, uh, a there can I say my words this morning? There's certainly an, an acknowledgement and a in a lot of research has gone into that, that people hear that someone died by suicide, and then they think, well, then I will, you know? Mm-hmm. . Yeah. It's, it's, it's, um, the person who dies by suicide doesn't mean for that to happen. It's not an intentional act to try to, uh, create that dynamic, but it does create that dynamic. Speaker 2: (11:04) Yes. Um, I was shocked by how loud the voice to shoot myself was immediately after that. And, um, thank you. And I, I knew the gun store, the gun dealer's business card was left on my mom's passenger seat. I had like, so many fantasies of going over there and buying a gun and shooting myself and, um, pushing myself into doing Donna's law brought into my life, many survivors of similar tragedies. Um, and, um, like with Mom's Demand Action, I mean, there I felt like all of a sudden I had a million moms that had wanted to . Speaker 1: (11:58) Well, you know, it, it also, for years we've had, um, we've had a policy in place where gambling people with gambling addictions can mm-hmm. can sign up at the, at the casinos, don't let me in the door, you know? Mm-hmm. , uh, they're literally barring themselves from gambling. And it's something that, uh, they do voluntarily and they do because they know it's a problem. And, and it's something about putting that hurdle in front of it. They can, again, renege on it and say, okay, I, I wanna take my name off, but it's completely voluntary. And that's exactly what you're saying. One of the reasons why I, you know, I, I live in a state where there are a lot of people. I, I live in Arkansas and there are a lot of people that have guns. There are a lot of people, you know, I have guns all over the United States, but this is not about challenging that. Speaker 1: (12:45) It's about challenging the idea that, um, so many firearms deaths are suicides, 60 to 65% of them, I think mm-hmm. Suicides. And we tend to think of it, the homicidal part of it, and we don't think of the suicidal part of it. So in, in essence, you're saying someone with major depression or someone who literally has just gone through some trauma themselves and realized that's beginning to crop up in their thinking. They don't have to have a diagnosis of a mental illness. It's simply that they know they are in a bad place, and it is a prohibition for them. Uh, it's like alcoholics not going in a, in a bar , you know? Mm-hmm. , uh, I know I can't, you know, I may not be able to resist that thought, and so I'm going to prohibit myself. I'm gonna stop myself before I even get started. Speaker 2: (13:34) Yeah. I wanted to, um, add two things I've learned about the things you're talking about is, uh, one in Pennsylvania right now, there is a bill to enable people to opt out of their ability to purchase alcohol from, uh, really I believe a state, a state liquor store. Um, so, uh, this type of, um, self contract is sometimes called a Ulysses Pact, um, from Homer, the Odyssey that, um, he ties himself to the boat to avoid the, the songs of the sirens and is able to like survive. I guess I haven't read the book . Um, and then the other thing I wanted to point out, uh, um, the gambling one is everyone who has talked to me about being on the list of the gambling prohibition is also someone who is bipolar. And, um, destroying one's finances is often something that can happen easily when someone is a, in an psychotic episode or in a mania. Um, so p people who know that, that there are times where they will make, um, better decisions and there will be times that they'll make worse decisions, um, I believe should be able to utilize these tools. Um, and I hope there becomes more of them. I love the idea of someone being able to, to stop their ability to buy alcohol. Yes. Um, I mean, what a beautiful tool that is. Speaker 1: (15:08) Now three states have passed Donna's law, correct? Speaker 2: (15:12) Yes. Virginia, Utah, and Washington. Speaker 1: (15:15) Tell me about your mom. Speaker 2: (15:17) She was very funny and she was very smart, educated, worldly. She loved music and dance. She was so generous to everybody. She had a huge heart for any animal, whether it was a lizard or a human. If it was suffering, she would be the first to intervene and try and protect that creature. Um, she was, uh, she had a lot of struggle with, um, mental illness throughout her life and worked incredibly hard to protect herself from suicide, um, which made Donna's life even more obvious because she really was an incredible advocate for her own mental health care, and so was I. And so was her partner. And, um, uh, there was a lot of strength in her, in her care circle. Mm-hmm. . Um, she had recently had a step grand baby that she was super excited about, and there was another one coming and, um, Speaker 1: (16:38) Oh, I can see that's a, that's a very tender spot. Yeah. Speaker 2: (16:41) Yeah. Like, it's like, I just know she didn't wanna miss that. Mm-hmm. Speaker 1: (16:47) Mm-hmm. And that's the thing, one of the, somebody listening who doesn't know a lot about bipolar disorder or mental illness in general is that when those, I'll call them voices or that energy or that impulsivity, when, when it is going on, you can completely lose sight of who you are at your most stable. It's almost as if there's a part of you that gets turned off. Um, mm-hmm. , did she have any psychotic episodes, or did she just have the bipolar disorder Speaker 2: (17:21) In the last year of her life? She had, um, very obvious psychotic episodes. Okay. And things like hearing voices. Right. And, um, extreme paranoia. Um, Speaker 1: (17:37) Mostly when she was manic, Speaker 2: (17:41) I, the, the end of her life, I guess it's like mixed state. Okay. Um, it, she was pretty much in like a panic attack for three months and she didn't sleep. And I would say insomnia played a big part in it. And, um, yeah, I mean, she wasn't, she wasn't really making any bad decisions. She was really just like in her house suffering. There Speaker 1: (18:13) Were a lot of Okay. She was fighting, fighting, fighting. Speaker 2: (18:15) Yeah. There was a lot of physical things happening to her also, um, with, uh, the medications that they were trying on her. And she had very intense tremors, and her hands shook so bad that, um, for the last several months of her life, she couldn't hold a fork because she would just stab her face and she had to eat all her food with like a, like her paw mm-hmm. , um, just bringing it to her mouth and, um, she couldn't write very well, um, because her hands were shaking, um, which made it even more offensive that a gun dealer would sell her a gun. Speaker 1: (19:04) Right, right. Uh, it is almost, it's impossible that she could have curbed all that and walked in and been looking much more normal. And obviously there were some things going on there that the gun dealer would've noticed. Mm-hmm. , what, what has establishing this, um, well, what, let me ask you this. What are y'all doing currently? Um, it's, the bill has been introduced to Congress, but they have not done anything. Is that, is that correct? Speaker 2: (19:32) Well, they've done a lot, but it hasn't progressed Speaker 1: (19:36) . Okay, okay. Speaker 2: (19:37) But they do invest a lot of resources that I appreciate, and there are offices there that are very busy working, so to say they've done nothing, um, wouldn't be fair to the, to the efforts. Speaker 1: (19:50) Did you get a lot of of feedback from your CBS um, interview? I bet you did. Speaker 2: (19:55) Oh, yeah. And so positive, I mean, I, I didn't get anything negative. I mean, I probably got like 200 emails that were so supportive and, um, lots more like interviews like with you and, uh, I love podcasting, so other podcasts and, um, other news sources and, um, it's also, it's made me realize like a lot of people were like, I wanna bring this to my state, which is amazing, but, um, I did not. Well, Speaker 1: (20:31) How do people do that? That's what I was gonna ask you next. Speaker 2: (20:33) Well, that was the next piece of work I had to do. So I created a Donna's Law Starter Pack the last couple weeks, and I've been creating all the templates and strategies for people to be able to do that in the most efficient, um, no cost way. Mm-hmm. . Um, and so essentially it just involves, um, choosing who the potential sponsors in your state could be, which will most likely be someone who has already sponsored a suicide prevention bill. Um, looking, also, another option of who it could be is, um, someone that's on the committee that will be determining whether this moves forward or not, um, because they have a stake in it and they have relationships with other people on that committee. Um, so it's, it, it's pretty fast to just identify a very small amount of people in a state and then just try to send them some of the letters that I've created templates for. And I feel like, um, excuse me, uh, I feel like I've created something that someone can hopefully just put a couple minutes into, a couple times a month and, um, perhaps if the climate's right in their state, bring it forward. Speaker 1: (22:00) How has, I mean, how have you grieved your mom? Speaker 2: (22:04) Um, I don't, I don't, I can't, I don't have like another dead mom to compare it to , so Speaker 1: (22:10) You're funny . Speaker 2: (22:13) So I'm not sure what it's like otherwise, but I do feel like it's been an incredible privilege and opportunity to have the support of the media at very difficult times and moments in my grief. And a lot of those people like you are in the mental health field, talk to me, um, and asking me specific questions that make me think and that lead my thinking into, um, Speaker 1: (22:52) Uh, Speaker 2: (22:52) How, how I was able to use this to help me, you know? And I think that one of the big things is not feeling shame. That's right. Not not feeling like zero shame. Like, I have zero shame that my mom shot herself. I mean, I have a stack of shames, and this is not on the list. Speaker 1: (23:16) , it's not even in the list. It's, it's not even the, what is that old fairy tale? The princess and the pea it's not even the pea . Right. . Speaker 2: (23:26) Um, so I, I assume that's beneficial. Um, it's been amazing to see my mom's picture like being waived at Congress by representatives. And, and there's this part of all this that feels like my mom is kind of like an organ donor. Like, like, because like she gets to donate her story and her photo, and that is so valuable to legislation. Speaker 1: (24:06) She is the person that, she's Donna, I mean, she mm-hmm. , she, her, her life and her death, the way she lived her life and, and then the way she killed herself is going to be honored. Uhhuh is honored by this law. There are... there's people's lives that she will save. Speaker 2: (24:27) Yeah. And, um, Speaker 1: (24:28) And you'll save by the way. Speaker 2: (24:30) Thank you. And you'll save as well. Um, I think that another aspect of it is like, when this first happened, um, I was dating this guy and he had this really great family, and one of my feelings like right away was like, "Oh my God, like his family is gonna think I'm, you know, unstable and Right. They're probably gonna think that I'm gonna do it, and now they know my mom is how she is." And I just felt like I can't, I can't let this be the end of my mom's story because that doesn't, that doesn't feel good to me for the end of her story to be that. Then she put a bullet in her head alone in a park. Um, but having the end of her story be that then she became a law that empowered people with a tool for self-defense Speaker 1: (25:40) Mm-hmm. Speaker 2: (25:41) Against one of the most common ways that people die in our country Speaker 1: (25:50) And the most lethal the most, yeah. Yeah. The most, the, the, the quote unquote best way to Yeah. As Google told your mom. Speaker 2: (25:59) And, um, another, another way that it's really helped me is, um, well meeting amazing people that really care about this and are willing to talk about it, because I can't really like be talking about gun suicide on like dates and stuff all the time. . Speaker 1: (26:17) Yeah. Now, you know, the world of a, a therapist, some people go, no, can't you talk about something else? Speaker 2: (26:22) . Right, right. Speaker 1: (26:24) Are you any fun? Speaker 2: (26:25) Right. But, and I'm like, but this is inspiring and innovative . Um, another way that it's really helped me is, um, meeting advocates of the bill that are bipolar people that have experienced suicidality and want to opt out of their ability to purchase a gun. Mm-hmm. . And through meeting them, it's really helped me understand what my mom was going through. And it's given me so much more respect for her. And I regret that in her life. I thought that she should work harder to hold it together. Yeah. Because now I realize that she was working as hard as she could Speaker 1: (27:11) Mm-hmm. Speaker 2: (27:12) And that she was holding a lot together. Speaker 1: (27:16) You know, I, I think with any, any kind of chronic mental illness, it's, that is a, that is a fight in and of itself because it is the chronicity of it and people watch you dealing with it and they don't know how hard you, you know, how hard it is to get outta bed or how hard it is to control those impulses or to deal with hearing voices. I mean, it's just, and that was her every day. Mm-hmm. . And I think it's difficult for other people to understand and so that you've gotten a firsthand account from these folks about Yeah. It is a, it is a huge job to, to control this kind of illness. Speaker 2: (27:55) Yeah. Um, Speaker 1: (27:57) Or try to control it. Speaker 2: (27:59) Yeah. And also, um, being able to say that my mom shot herself is something that was not allowed on, on the news four years ago. Really. And I have, yeah. I mean, even when I go on YouTube to watch my own interview on CBS Sunday morning, it gives me two content warnings and a recommendation for the suicide helpline. Just cuz I wanna watch my own interview mm-hmm. Speaker 1: (28:27) mm-hmm. . Speaker 2: (28:29) I mean that is, but I can, I mean, I can see some horrific scene from the Ukraine war and the media doesn't mind showing me that mm-hmm. Speaker 1: (28:39) . Speaker 2: (28:40) Um, so Speaker 1: (28:41) That's a great point. Speaker 2: (28:42) But my mom deserves some of the credit for how this conversation has really opened up and, um, given the country a way to talk about it that isn't so depressing and is kind of inspiring . Mm-hmm. Speaker 1: (28:55) , it's more than kinda of inspiring. It's inspiring. Speaker 2: (28:59) Thank you very much. Um, so Donna's law isn't just gonna protect the, that 65% mm-hmm. , um, from suicide. It's also gonna protect people from accidentally, or not accidentally, but in an episode to shoot somebody that they love. Mm-hmm. , I mean, I was think, I was looking at data today about the percentage of men that shoot themselves after shooting their domestic partner. And it, it was, um, I can't remember the state, but it was 59%. And I thought about it and one of the things I do in my work is I don't fight for gun control. I'm not fighting and I'm definitely not fighting gun enthusiasts about it. No. Speaker 1: (29:45) Mm-hmm. Speaker 2: (29:46) , um, I compassion for, um, gun violence prevention and that compassion starts with me compassion for the other person if I expect them to compassion for me. And so I was looking at that data today about men who shoot their partner and I thought if I had just shot my partner, I would want to shoot myself Speaker 1: (30:10) Mm-hmm. Speaker 2: (30:10) , you know, like, what a sad thing. I mean, what an awful, horrific thing to experience mm-hmm. to shoot your partner. And I wanna protect those people too. Speaker 1: (30:25) Well, you know, I'm thinking as you were talking about this, advocating for greater awareness and acceptance that this is what's happening. Uh, I have noticed, uh, and again, I, I live in a pretty conservative state, but I have noticed that when more and more people who are dying by suicide, their families are choosing to include that in the obituary. Mm-hmm. , their families are including, they, they, they want that to be known. So how is this changing you as a person, Katrina? How, how has Speaker 2: (30:56) Changed Oh, so much changed your Speaker 1: (30:57) Family? How's it Speaker 2: (30:58) It has changed my family. Um, when I first started doing this work, my family, except for one person, showed me zero support about it. Speaker 1: (31:08) Wow. Speaker 2: (31:09) And I, it's been, it was years before. I got real acknowledgement from my family of support on this work. And I was even told not to do this work by my family. I was told that what I was talking about was like nonsense. Speaker 1: (31:34) Wow. Speaker 2: (31:35) Um, I was, I think that there was a lot of fear because they Speaker 1: (31:38) Were, was that, did that come from their own humiliation or their own shame or? Speaker 2: (31:42) I think it came from their fear of me putting my life on the line to discuss gun control in America. Speaker 1: (31:49) I see. Right. Speaker 2: (31:50) Impulsive gun suicide is, did not begin in my family with my mom. There were four other suicides in our family before my mom that, um, having my mom's death be in the newspaper, having me ask questions cuz reporters were asking questions and learning about my own family history of suicide, um, has really opened up the conversation. Um, and I mean, our family for generations has been defined by suicide. And then, um, almost all parts of my family have experienced suicide on like, people say like, um, oh, was there bipolar on your mom's side? And it's like, no, but there's a ton of it on my dad's side. Speaker 1: (32:42) . Really? Wow. Speaker 2: (32:45) So like, it, um, it, it's like coming at me on both sides now and, um, it has really opened up the conversation from my family's elders that have experienced a lot of these losses and also, um, how does my generation in our family protect each other? Mm-hmm. . And, um, I mean, I still don't see a lot of my family like sharing my articles on social media or, or much like that, but they'll text me and, you know, tell me that they're proud of it. Um. Speaker 1: (33:26) Good. I'm glad. I'm glad. Speaker 2: (33:28) So it's, it's evolving and, um, I'm gonna keep going and I assume that they're gonna keep opening up about it and I hope at some point they're gonna be testifying in their states in front of their legislatures in support of this mm-hmm. . Um, because it's it's coming to their states soon. . Speaker 1: (33:48) . You're gonna make sure of that, it sounds like. Yeah. Speaker 2: (33:52) . Speaker 1: (33:54) Well, it has been an honor talking with you and I really appreciate this so much. Speaker 2: (33:58) Oh, thank you so much. I really appreciate being able to, um, share this knowledge with your, with your listeners and with you. It's been a beautiful conversation. Great. Speaker 1: (34:19) Thanks so much for listening in to self work today. It's an honor for you to be here and I so appreciate the fact that you are here and you give us your time. This week you may notice a new sponsor of Self-Work. It's the Jordan Harbinger Show and the ad is in a different format, what's called an intra cast, so that you can listen to that information in just a couple of minutes. It'll be listed as the second episode in your podcast app. I found his show to be entertaining and intriguing, and I more than welcome his team to self-work. Please take very good care, as I say, every episode of yourself, your family, the people you care about, and your community. I'm Dr. Margaret and this has been self-work.     Our Sponsors: * Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code SELFWORK for a great deal: happymammoth.com * Check out Paired: paired.com/SELFWORK Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands